kaishaku forums
|
Home | User list | Search | Register | Login
You are not logged in.
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
I am exploring part of a combat system and looking for examples and references
that might serve to assist in whatever ways possible. I am going to go to the local
tabletop shop today or tomorrow and spend some time looking through the books,
but I expect most things will be more simplistic than what I seek.
I am thinking about combat where :
* weapons don't do dice roll damages, the wielder determines most of that
* weapon have weight, balance, sharpness, etc which directly affect their use
* some/many weapons can be dual or single wielded or used in different ways
* melee combat does not have to be synchronous, and perhaps the decision of
a faster attacker to attack continually or wait for opponents slow attack has a
part to play in strategy.
* fighting is often itself much more noteworthy than other muds
* the skill of the player is also a definite factor (the player, not the character)
Try not to discuss anything too specific here, this is a path I am exploring, I give
my ideas and interests and seek advice on resources to learn from.
Generally speaking, I think combat is a very important place for strategy and
some distinction among players. I like a more raw and realistic approach in
combat I think, starting with things like those mentioned above. I am not a
fan of a random number generator in the "wrong" place.
Many times posts in this phase are being burdened by annoying specifics.
|
|
| 2004-05-28 18:13:19 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
|
| 2004-05-30 05:57:12 |
|
Zadmar
Member
Registered: 2004-05-24
Posts: 27
|
|
kaishaku wrote:
I am thinking about combat where :
* weapons don't do dice roll damages, the wielder determines most of that
* weapon have weight, balance, sharpness, etc which directly affect their use
* some/many weapons can be dual or single wielded or used in different ways
* melee combat does not have to be synchronous, and perhaps the decision of
a faster attacker to attack continually or wait for opponents slow attack has a
part to play in strategy.
* fighting is often itself much more noteworthy than other muds
* the skill of the player is also a definite factor (the player, not the character)
|
Some more questions to consider:
* What is a "weapon" - can anything be used in combat? Your fists? A rock? A chair leg? Can you strangle someone with your belt, or beat their head in with a breastplate?
* What's the relationship between a shield and a weapon. Is the former a specialised type of the latter? What about weapons that fall in between, such as spiked bucklers or main gauches?
* What sort of stylistic differences will exist between "paired weapons", "weapon plus shield" and "two-handed weapon" - and how will these be balanced out?
* What sort of fighting styles will be provided, if any, and what sort of genre will they be based upon?
* What role will weapon/armour materials play?
* How will missile (and thrown) weapons work? What about melee weapons with long reach?
* Will movement be integrated into combat (advance, retreat, circle)? What about fighting formations for groups?
* How will mounted weapons such as lances be handled (do you need to be riding at a certain speed? Does your riding speed affect damage and accuracy?)?
* How will non-weapon attacks be intregrated into the action? Ie, if I want to kick someone while wielding a sword and shield, will that be integrated into the combat, or will it be some sort of separate action?
* What sort of uses can each weapon be put to? Can I choose to stab, slash or pummel with my sword? Or is it random? Do I specify that I want to parry, or is that handled automatically? Do I have different types of parry (high, low, left, right) or are they all assumed to work the same way?
* What is the difference between "armour" and "clothing"? Will they be distinct types, or will they simply represent the black and white extremes into which any wearable item can fall?
* Will there be a concept of body locations - perhaps for injuries, perhaps to calculating which areas are covered by armour, or perhaps both?
* Will the mud distinguish between damage types? And if so, how far will it go? Will it differentiate between different types of slash based on blade width and weight, or just focus on a handful of basic damage types such as "slash", "stab" and "crush"?
* Will certain weapons provide advantages in large scale battles (eg pikemen vs cavalry)?
* How will heavy armour be balanced against light armour (ie an encumbrance system)?
* What sort of affect will the different stats have on different parts of combat? Can those with more stamina fight longer and ignore pain better? Can those with greater strength wear heavier armour and wield larger weapons? Can those with high Presence gain advantages by intimidating their foes? Will there be stat requirements for using certain weapons - and if so, will these be boolean (you can use it: yes/no) or result in penalties based on how far below the requirements you are?
|
|
| 2004-05-30 18:26:31 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
I think I can process the possibilities of realistic combat and research subtleties.
However, my idea of combat will be determined by first considering the game and
strategy from the gamer's point of view. In this respect realism is secondary.
Feel free to post your own ideas for combat, mine is not to consider realism first.
|
|
| 2004-05-30 20:00:16 |
|
Zadmar
Member
Registered: 2004-05-24
Posts: 27
|
|
kaishaku wrote:
I like a more raw and realistic approach in combat I think, starting with things like those mentioned above |
Great, me too. However:
kaishaku wrote:
Feel free to post your own ideas for combat, mine is not to consider realism first. |
You've confused me now. What parts of combat do you wish to discuss? As far as realism is concerned, should we only be discussing the points mentioned in your original post at this time? I could perhaps put together some feedback on those points, my only concern is that you said we should try not to discuss anything too specific.
|
|
| 2004-05-31 12:21:32 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
I am personally exploring combat system options. In my initial exploration I am
looking for something more realistic than Diku, but doing so from the perspective
of the player, not the perspective of fully representing realistic blade combat.
Others are welcome and encouraged to investigate and make proposals of their
own, but just posting a bunch of questions is not useful to me at this point and
can actually serve to disrupt my thought process on the subject.
Also, remember not to confuse brainstorming and exploration with proposal.
No more 20-questions in brainstorming. Brainstorm or contribute yourselves.
|
|
| 2004-05-31 17:08:05 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
All that said, I like the strategy in the riddle of steel system. It is realistic but
still provides strategy. It is visceral, but shows me parts of realism I might like
to have, in particular the danger present for both sides; trepidation.
It is rather quick and involved. I was also toying with the idea of making different
modes of combat for different classes, so that a warrior-alike character would play
with this advanced and flexible system of combat, and other classes would do
something different.
I've also been toying with the idea of making combat occur 10 times less than
it does in a standard Diku mud, or even more.
In all, for strategic and social impact I am currently looking for realism in combat.
On the tactical side I am looking for some of the same, but am considering making
that part less complicated or more fluid than something like Riddle of Steel.
I will write a server and we can all connect to test out this combat system within
the next 2-3 weeks. It's fairly involved and could have great implications in game.
Recommendations of other systems most enthusiastically welcomed.
P.S. All above use of the word "classes" is relative to development of skills and
classes. We may not have classes. I am personally leaning that way at the moment.
|
|
| 2004-05-31 17:08:56 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
Those interested in checking out the riddle of steel combat system can pit two
characters versus each other with this handy, if buggy, desktop application :
Riddle of Steel Combat Simulator
I bet there would be licensing issues using this ourselves, but I think we can
use RoS as something to strive for, or in the direction of, if we decide we like it.
RoS vs Diku :
* RoS battles can be much longer
* On average most RoS battles are shorter
* Definite strategy, resource allocation and rock/paper/scissors (from realism)
* Real fear, stalemates possible, wow factor, turning the tide possible
Fighting two characters with different weapons and the same stats I find you
must learn how to play the character with the shorter weapon or with the shield
different than simple clicking through to attack, etc.
RoS will obviously not be exactly what we use, but if it were something like it
I would consider changing things to make it less granular and possibly less
dangerous, giving characters a bit more fortitude, but not much (if any).
If you download this, start clicking stuff and die, don't whine. It takes thought.
|
|
| 2004-05-31 17:19:05 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
In being influenced by any pen & paper systems we should always remember that
these systems were designed for pen & paper. With a computer we have so much
more freedom in some of the things we can do, but are also restricted.
We should always try to think what the designers would have done differently if they
were allowed to assume a computer would be in overall control of the system.
As such, it is most likely we will develop our own combat system, influenced of not
by systems that currently exist in all other places. Consider the system from many
perspectives, most people usually only consider one. In particular, consider it from
the players perspective, what would you want to be typing and what choices would
you want to be making. Most often it is considered from the perspective of the
creator attempting to represent reality. That is only a part of a better process.
|
|
| 2004-05-31 17:39:14 |
|
|
|
Actually, I work a little backwards when it comes to ideas. I'm end-product based so I think of what I want it to look like first, then figure out how to do it. Along the way other things come up and eventually it all comes together into a neat little dynamic.
I'm picturing:
You slash low, hitting Kaishaku in the knee.
Kaishaku counters, slamming an overhand right into your head.
You press your attack with a wide slash, but Kaishaku sidesteps and you lose your balance.
Timely strike: Kaishaku!
Kaishaku takes advantage of the moment, snapping a spinning kick to your side.
You trip and fall.
Kaishaku jumps, planting a knee into your back on the way down.
Rolling, you regain your feet and strike hard.
Kaishaku aims a kick for your head, but you block.
Etc, etc. Working backwards from this I can start making a rough outline of how the code would need to look (In C):
1) State (standing, kneeling, sitting, recovering, fallen).
2) Attack type and weapon split, switches for weapon class.
3) Random body strike targets.
4) "Last attack" memory for follow up combinations.
Etc, et al.
--P
Sidenote: Guess what weapons Kaishaku and I were using without being told. Storytellers call that "inferring". ;)
Last edited by Pandemonium (2004-06-02 09:30:51)
_______________________________________
MSQ: "Games of Mortality"
|
|
| 2004-06-02 09:28:08 |
|
kaishaku
Administrator
Registered: 2004-05-14
Posts: 189
|
|
I like that picture, it looks a bit cleaner than Riddle of Steel.
To implement it well after this sort of brainstorm we should consider listing or
charting the rules of three, and also consider a resource allocation mechanic.
I think I like the idea of combat being a big part of local tactics/small strategy.
Also, don't feel obligated to start writing any code, but check out Python if you do.
|
|
| 2004-06-02 10:11:08 |
|
Jump to
|
Powered by PunBB
Version: 1.1.4
© Copyright 2002-2004 Rickard Andersson
|
|